Sneak Attack, touch spells, and metamagic.


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

My friend needs to prove this for someone.

Does Sneak attack apply on touch spells?

Does metamagic apply to the sneak attack?


Sneak attack is not a separate pool of damage. It is simply added on to the damage of the spell.

Jason confirms that here.

So yes, metamagic would apply to the sneak attack dice as well, since it's simply a part of the spell's damage, no different than the +1d6 a fireball does from a higher caster level.

Sneak attack applies whenever you make an attack roll.

Whoever is saying it can't be done needs to find rules that say that it can't be done. Good luck finding non-existent rules.


Put another way, yes scorching ray would add sneak attack damage.


Thank you cheapy thats perfect :)


does thesneak damage get multiplied if the caster uses empower spell?


I'm not sure thats what Bulmahn intended with the single pool of damage. That doesn't necessarily mean its a single effect. The sneak attack and spell are still separate, they just do damage together.


Quote:

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

The sneak attack damage is not a separate pool of damage. It is a part of the spell's damage. Would the spell's damage normally be affected by empower spell? If so, then the sneak attack damage will be as well, as they are one and the same.

Shadow Lodge

The damage is not a separate pool for the purpose of dr but it is a different type of damage. Precision damage is not multiplied by critical or other effect to my understanding. Is there a errata or FAQ that changes that?


Seriphim84 wrote:

The damage is not a separate pool for the purpose of dr but it is a different type of damage. Precision damage is not multiplied by critical or other effect to my understanding. Is there a errata or FAQ that changes that?

Sneak attack uses the same type of damage as its attack. Doesn't matter if its piercing, negative, or even fire damage. Scorching ray's sneak attack would be fire damage


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I'm not sure thats what Bulmahn intended with the single pool of damage. That doesn't necessarily mean its a single effect. The sneak attack and spell are still separate, they just do damage together.

Jason specifically said "The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll." That means it's a "single effect" as you put it. He's not trying to be subtle.


SA does the same type of damage as the spell, and for the purpose of bypassing energy resistance it would count. It is not multiplied or empowered however.


Cheapy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

I'm not sure thats what Bulmahn intended with the single pool of damage. That doesn't necessarily mean its a single effect. The sneak attack and spell are still separate, they just do damage together.

Jason specifically said "The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll." That means it's a "single effect" as you put it. He's not trying to be subtle.

Part of the damage roll, but not part of the spell effect.

damage roll= { [empowered spell X1.5]+[sneak attack]}

Then you would subtract say, the fire resistance 10.


I Agree with wraithstrike and BNW.


wraithstrike wrote:
It is not multiplied or empowered however.

I'd love to see where it says / implies that, since it can get a bit ridiculous. Especially with things like crossblooded bloodlines and being a half-orc...


Cheapy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not multiplied or empowered however.
I'd love to see where it says / implies that

I also would like to see were the CRB says the contrary.


Here is how it works

Weapon damage(which is multiplied on crits)+SA damage=total damage

Spell damage(which is mulitplied on crits and affected by metamagic)+SA=total damage

Jason was trying to point out that SA is not a rider effect that only takes place when damage is dealt. That is important because some rider effects don't take effect if no damage is done.

In that way it is rolled along with the spell or weapon damage, but it is not subject to the same rules as the base damage of the spell or weapon that allows it to take place.

Grand Lodge

so my fire draconic soc4/rogue3/arcane trickster 3, would be able to cast a empowered scorching ray and come out with 4d6+2d6+4+26, (with magical linage scorching ray)?


Nicos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not multiplied or empowered however.
I'd love to see where it says / implies that
I also would like to see were the CRB says the contrary.

Check Sneak Attack under the rogue class feature, and then the above link to Jason's post.


Cheapy wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not multiplied or empowered however.
I'd love to see where it says / implies that
I also would like to see were the CRB says the contrary.
Check Sneak Attack under the rogue class feature, and then the above link to Jason's post.

Jason was talking about overcoming DR, it would be logical to asme that SA also helps to overcome energy resistance. That´s all. There is no referense to any metamagic feat.


He says its part of the spell. Its not damage tacked on. Its part of the damage of the attack (the attack being the actual spell here)


Cheapy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not multiplied or empowered however.
I'd love to see where it says / implies that, since it can get a bit ridiculous. Especially with things like crossblooded bloodlines and being a half-orc...

SA damage has never been treated like base weapon damage, and rays are weapons.

It is always added on at the end after crits and everything else has been figured out.

If you crit with a scythe the 3d6(Assuming 5th level rogue) is not multiplied, and there is nothing to support it being empowered.

If you were correct then it would also be multiplied and PF/D&D 101 tells you that is not how it works.


Does SA get duplicated by vital strike?


wraithstrike wrote:


Jason was trying to point out that SA is not a rider effect that only takes place when damage is dealt. That is important because some rider effects don't take effect if no damage is done.

And the reason it's not a rider effect is because it's a part of the base damage and not separate, as opposed to how it was in 3.5.

But I recognize that this is soon going to get dogmatic, so rather than set myself up for debating all day tomorrow at work over something so stupid, I'm just going to bow out and say for now that for some reason despite being a part of the damage like anything else in a spell and there being no text saying that metamagic only applies to one part of a spell's damage but not the rest, it won't be affected by the metamagic.


Nicos wrote:
Does SA get duplicated by vital strike?

What do you mean by duplicated?


vital strike only affects the weapon dice damage


Cheapy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Jason was trying to point out that SA is not a rider effect that only takes place when damage is dealt. That is important because some rider effects don't take effect if no damage is done.

And the reason it's not a rider effect is because it's a part of the base damage and not separate, as opposed to how it was in 3.5.

But I recognize that this is soon going to get dogmatic, so rather than set myself up for debating all day tomorrow at work over something so stupid, I'm just going to bow out and say for now that for some reason despite being a part of the damage like anything else in a spell and there being no text saying that metamagic only applies to one part of a spell's damage but not the rest, it won't be affected by the metamagic.

Even in 3.5 it was not a rider affect.

Grand Lodge

honestly though a call from one of the designer would be a nice thing to have.


3.5 Rules of the game wrote:

Damage from Sneak Attacks

The bonus damage from a sneak attack is expressed as extra dice and it is not multiplied with a successful critical hit, or when an attack otherwise gets a damage multiplier. For example, a rogue charging with a mounted lance can make a sneak attack, but the damage multiplier for the mounted charge doesn't apply to the sneak attack.

A successful sneak attack increases the damage dealt. When you make a sneak attack against a foe with damage reduction, roll the sneak damage and add it to the damage from the hit before applying the effects of damage reduction.

Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack. For example, if you make a sneak attack with a sword (a slashing weapon), all the damage from the sneak attack is slashing damage (also see the Spells as Sneak Attacks section in Part Four).

Grand Lodge

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack

This basically says the same thing too...


Jessie Sturkie wrote:
honestly though a call from one of the designer would be a nice thing to have.

There is no need. The rules say sneak attack can not be multiplied on crits. The rules do say it is the same type of damage as the original source, but at no point is there anything saying it should be multiplied along with the base damage.

That is how it was in 3.5, and there has been no wording to change that.

Just like in my last post all the damage would be slashing damage if it came from a sword that did slashing damage, and if you use scorching ray then it would be fire damage.


I've flagged the link for a FAQ so we can get a final answer to this tomorrow. Night everyone


wraithstrike wrote:
Jessie Sturkie wrote:
honestly though a call from one of the designer would be a nice thing to have.

There is no need. The rules say sneak attack can not be multiplied on crits. The rules do say it is the same type of damage as the original source, but at no point is there anything saying it should be multiplied along with the base damage.

That is how it was in 3.5, and there has been no wording to change that.

Just like in my last post all the damage would be slashing damage if it came from a sword that did slashing damage, and if you use scorching ray then it would be fire damage.

Yes but we have word from one of the designers that its part of the damage for the attack here, not tagged on. The attack is a spell in this specific instance. If its part of the damage for the spell and not tagged on well guess what, maximize says "ALL variable effects"


wraithstrike wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Does SA get duplicated by vital strike?
What do you mean by duplicated?

Sorry for my bad english. I mean doubled.

I suppose the anwer is NO, for the same reason SA damage does not get epowered.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Jessie Sturkie wrote:
honestly though a call from one of the designer would be a nice thing to have.

There is no need. The rules say sneak attack can not be multiplied on crits. The rules do say it is the same type of damage as the original source, but at no point is there anything saying it should be multiplied along with the base damage.

That is how it was in 3.5, and there has been no wording to change that.

Just like in my last post all the damage would be slashing damage if it came from a sword that did slashing damage, and if you use scorching ray then it would be fire damage.

Yes but we have word from one of the designers that its part of the damage for the attack here, not tagged on. The attack is a spell in this specific instance. If its part of the damage for the spell and not tagged on well guess what, maximize says "ALL variable effects"

It is not tagged on, not in the sense that it is a rider affect. It is additional damage however, and not base damage, and the rules specifically call it out as "extra damage".

sneak attack wrote:
...The rogue's attack deals extra damage...

In short sneak attack adds to the base damage when determining total, but it is not a part of the base damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
I've flagged the link for a FAQ so we can get a final answer to this tomorrow.

Good luck with that.

Sczarni

I didn't see any instance so far where sneak attack damage was multiplied. Only thing is that it stacks with other precision damage types. It seems clear enough to me.


I know that this is an old post.. but i've a question: If my pg is a Rogue 3 / Draconic Fire sorcerer 4 (it's an example) and cast a scorching ray against a flat-flooted enemy:

does the bloodline arcana (+1/die of the spell with the fire descriptor)
apply to the SA dices??

Is 4d6+4 + 2d6 (SA) or 6d6+6??

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